On Thursday Evening I attended this Debate Chat at Xfire with many others. It was a memorable experience. Here are the notes from the chat. The night of the chat, I was speaking with another attendee that I had added to my Xfire about the chat. We were both exited and I was inspired to keep this Topic Alive on Xfire. So I created a Cult group with Xfire's beta Clan program. The name of our group is Women in Gaming : Get into Now...wiggin for short. The response has been great, many of the guests from the debate have joined up, and agree to continue chatting together. I think this group has a potential to impact the gaming industry for men and women and gamers all over the world. Our panel is full of talent, intelligence and passion. Keep up to date on our chats here at this blog and cheer us on as we move into the Future! Much thanks to Brinstar for supporting us and giving advice as this group grows.
[link=
http://www.xfire.com/cms/xf_debate_transcript9_main/]Debate Transcript[/link]
October 25th, 2007
Guest Moderator:Helen Kennedy, Senior Lecturer, University of the West of EnglandGuests:
Leigh Alexander, Staff Writer, Gamasutra
Colette Bennett, Editor, Destructoid
Amber "AthenaTwin" Dalton, Clan Leader and Founder, PMS Clan
Robyn Fleming, Senior Editor, Cerise Magazine Jasmin Kassner, Founder, PixelTamer GamesLesley Smith, Freelance Games JournalistPlus, Many Members of Xfire that Requested to attend.
[uwe]helen kennedy: What are the specific challenges you have faced as a player of games and as a professional?
Robyn: I think most women have had at least a few irritating conversations about whether they "really" play games.
DestructoidColette: I know personally people still don't really believe women play games, or if they do, they play girl-specific games
Lesley Smith: Very true! Someone I worked for once told me there was no such thing as women gamers, despite hiring me.
[Cerise] Robyn: *nod* and when you do something gaming-related for work, the assumptions just keep right on coming - only now it's about you as a professional as well as a hobbyist. Nice!
Apocalyptica: I come from germany, and must say that the only hurdle as a proffessional was to show the other male coders that I am just a good coder as they are. In gaming I have never realy had problem beeing accepted as a gamer...must be because I am good :p
[uwe]helen kennedy: Great. Do you think that most women are taken seriously as players? and if not why not? is this true of women who play games competitively? -[uwe]helen kennedy: Apologies from Leigh who wont be able to join us after all..
DestructoidColette: Personally I feel you just have to let these stereotypes roll off you. I think women are very much judged because of the fact that we are women; a stereotype that is hundreds of years old won't just go away because a girl shows up and says she can beat you at a game.
Lesley Smith: I find men are often shocked when they find out women play the same games, like WoW or Gears of War.
Apocalyptica: When a woman gamer is good she will get accepted I find. Just look at the realy good CS and UT female gamers. They rock. They love playing competivly.
[Cerise] Robyn: I think there are lots of gaming communities that are ready to take women seriously as players.
[Cerise] Robyn: but, yeah, I think there's pressure
[uwe]helen kennedy: Is there more pressure to somehow need to be even better than male colleagues or other male players just to get accepted? Have any of you experienced this directly as players or professionals?
Lesley Smith: Oh yeah
[Cerise] Robyn: and also pressure to be the "right" kind of female player, depending on which sort of group one is trying to get along with
DestructoidColette: Personally for me there isn't, because I don't play competitively. I can say as a journalist sometimes there is an air of judgement from other journalists, but it isn't frequent in comparison to the ugly treatment some competitive female gamers face.
Apocalyptica: I truly believe that after a certain age of 14-15, females do develope they own taste which is not formed by their parents no more. So some will be comepetitive some not, just like boys. I believe the difference lies more in culture as in gender.
[uwe]helen kennedy: interesting Robyn, can you say more about what the 'right' kind of female player might be in different contexts?
[Cerise] Robyn: sometimes there's pressure to be "one of the guys", and not remind your fellow players that you -are- a woman
[Cerise] Robyn: and other times, the pressure is to be cute or sexy, or to play the damsel in distress, etc.
[uwe]helen kennedy: Apocalyptica & others.. what are the elements of 'culture' are particularly problematic?
Apocalyptica: But don't you think the pressure is just to be good. I mean when you are competitive does it realy matter if your male or female? isn't just the drive to be the best what counts?
DestructoidColette: I think the image of women in games versus women who play games in real life is always an issue.
[Cerise] Robyn: Apocalyptica, I think that -ought- to be the prevailing pressure, sure
DestructoidColette: women are still being heavily objectified in most games. Whether we like it or not, it has an impact on how we are viewed in general.
[Cerise] Robyn: I definitely agree, Colette.
Lesley Smith: Exactly, I agree too.
Apocalyptica: For instance I find that in america girl tend to be more like girl as in europe for instance . Especially northern europe, where most people just wanna be people. When you sit in front of a computer you only need a mouse and a keyboard Stuff like physical strength, gender etc. don't matter at all.
[uwe]helen kennedy: What differences are there in the treatment and representation of women between an 'offline' community and culture and that which exists online?
Apocalyptica: I truly believet that most females put themself in that role. Thereis totally no need for it. Just be a good gamer or as a professional be good at your job.
[Cerise] Robyn: I think people feel free to be much ruder online than to one's face.
DestructoidColette: Well, the internet gives you the ability to create yourself as you wish (to a degree.) You don't have to identify as female if you don't want to. Hiding your gender seems pointless, but some women will do it so they won't be harassed.
Lesley Smith: I think in offline games, it's harder to be a woman. Most protagonists are male and in online, people assume that you're male even if you play a female character. At the end of the day, how we act within the game doesn't have to reflect on what gender we are in real life.
[uwe]helen kennedy: There are many contexts of gameplay and I think that maybe some of the processes that lead to women (and young girls maybe) opting out of game culture occur long before they get anywhere near a computer. What about you all?
[Cerise] Robyn: but online communities can be really great for finding communities that are a really good match for your gaming style
Lesley Smith: Oh yes.
Apocalyptica: indeed
[Cerise] Robyn: definitely, Helen
[PMS] Athena Twin: Offline is more friendly I think then online...online (where people hide behind anonymity) is where women are really harrassed more I think.
[uwe]helen kennedy: Apocalyptica could you say a bit more about your point about 'females' putting themselves in that role? Is there an issue there about women setting themselves up as victims within games culture?
Apocalyptica: no I do not believe that at all. I play nearly only MMO's and have never been harrassed. Hell I am still playing Ultima Online in my 9th year.
DestructoidColette: Games became important to me when I was 8 years old. I think girls of today may have to contend with what their parents think of gaming and if they believe in the negative media that people like Jack Thompson support. If that doesn;t stand in the way, they may be able to discover the gamign culture naturally.
[PMS] Athena Twin: I play FPS, very differanyt type of game and users
Apocalyptica: Yes I used to play FPs, now I am getting old and reaction time slower lol...so I switched to MMO's hehe
[uwe]helen kennedy: Collette's point is a critical one - games and gamesplay are perceived very negatively and often subject to scares and media panics which are very likely to inform the ways in which parents behave in 'allowing' certain activities for their daughters and 'discouraging' others.
Lesley Smith: I generally play MMOs or survival horror, the latter usually has a strong female bias, promoting women as being physically weak but resourceful, growing through out the game.
[Cerise] Robyn: Helen, I think there's also a lot of peer-group pressure for girls who might want to get into gaming
[PMS] Athena Twin: I dont mind seeing differant types of women charactors at all, but I do like to see strong women mixed in the games.
DestructoidColette: It scares me because when I think of what games represented to me, and how they made my childhood and young adulthood so much better, I fear that girls growing up may be cheated out of that because of the media image of gaming.
Lesley Smith: The problem is - here in the UK - this industry treats women gamers as separate, a special entity to be patted on the head.
[PMS] Athena Twin: well women are in infancy there.
[uwe]helen kennedy: What problems are there in ways in which women are represented within games and in games marketing and advertising - you have mentioned some genre differences that seem to be particularly relevant but are there other issues that need some attention.
[PMS] Athena Twin: they need to be ecouraged to get more women in general.
[Cerise] Robyn: the pink poison problem
Lesley Smith: EUGH
Apocalyptica: Here in germany I can gladly say that women gamers are jsut as respected and accepted as male gamers
[PMS] Athena Twin: until there are more women coming out and saying "look we are here, we play just like you do"
Lesley Smith: YES!
[uwe]helen kennedy: Athena - how are women in infancy? Do you mean as gamers or as participants in the industry?
[PMS] Athena Twin: both actually, and i do not mean numbers in general
[Cerise] Robyn: that games that are targeted at women are always in pink boxes and advertised as for women -only-
Apocalyptica: exatly women don't realy want pink games, they want good games
[PMS] Athena Twin: i mean as far as exposure
[PMS] Athena Twin: that we are a viable market companies hsould be targeting as consumers, employees, etc
Lesley Smith: pink consoles are a bane, I personally hate them intensely and yet the major manufacturers continue creating them.
[uwe]helen kennedy: The whole pink games phenomenon was lamentably ill-conceived - lets dance on its demise..
[PMS] Athena Twin: <---likes pink game systems :D Apocalyptica: only person I know who own a pink PS2 is a guy [Cerise] Robyn: I kinda like the pink - but I hate the way it's marketed [PMS] Athena Twin: but some women dont, and i think the point is it is OK Lesley Smith: I think women don't really care about the colour, it's the console and games that matter but the industry can't understand they do not need to make special ones just for us [PMS] Athena Twin: we are individuals that like all differant things, brought together by a love of gaming [Cerise] Robyn: Exactly, Lesley Lesley Smith: Exactly DestructoidColette: I would like to see less weak female characters in games -- basically the "Aerith" syndrome makes women look bad, as we are portayed as "healers", but rarely as fighters [uwe]helen kennedy: Why do you like pink games systems - is that different to the whole pink games nonsense that emerged after the success of Barbie Fashion Designer? [PMS] Athena Twin: I think they all work together, have the games we like, and have the way to make it as personal as we like it. [PMS] Athena Twin: it is about personal preferances, and neither is wrong [Cerise] Robyn: Yes, Athena Twin - if someone likes the color, they ought to be able to get consoles and accessories in that shade Lesley Smith: Has anyone seen Ubisoft#s latest line of games? The Imagine series? [PMS] Athena Twin: not just color, fashion is a natrual companant ofr male and female audiances...personalization is key [Cerise] Robyn: augh Lesley Smith: that is a prime example of how not to do games for women Lesley Smith: overkill Apocalyptica: well what I really want to bring across is that in front of the pc we are all the same. no matter what color, what gender or what sexual prefenrences. We have this unique opportunity to be all the same: Gamers! Why das the marketing still cling on to the old fashioned values of male or female and stuff. Its stupid. by marketing a game to guys you lose females players and vica versa. Marketing peeps have to come into the present and realize that they can just market good games!!! Lesley Smith: Amen to that, sister! [uwe]helen kennedy: Athena, just to backtrack a little - could you expand on what you mean by exposure. And could you all say a little more about the Ubisoft line. DestructoidColette: Well, the hard thing about trashing the Ubisoft line is that it is based on a survey of what girl sin a certain age range wanted (supposedly) Lesley Smith: Hah [Cerise] Robyn: those kinds of surveys are usually not particularly impartial, though [PMS] Athena Twin: well, women on the forefront is still underdeveloped, and we owe it to the next generation to be able to say 'yes you are a girl" and that is fine to play DestructoidColette: I don't like the idea that these games are being pushed at little girls, but at the same time how do you market Contra to an 8 year old girl? [uwe]helen kennedy: Why do you think the marketing and advertising is so resistant to what seems to all of you (and me) like fairly common sense ideas. Make good games targeted at anyone/everyone? What do you think is at stake for them in maintaining very rigidly defined ways of packaging games and consoles? [PMS] Athena Twin: that is only thing that will bring in more women into the area and out from behind there screens DestructoidColette: I think all PR and marketing ideas are directly linked to the bottom line = money [Cerise] Robyn: I think that's the way toys and entertainment are marketed to kids, generally - very rigidly defined by gender roles. Lesley Smith: Yeah [PMS] Athena Twin: of course they are...and both are the companants of success [uwe]helen kennedy: Colette - the issue of pushing Contra to an 8 year old... is that more a question of intelligent ratings and clear information about content? Just as a parent wouldnt want their daughter to watch films or tv with adult themes or content..? [Cerise] Robyn: and so when someone produces a game, they go with what has been shown to work with children of the same age group [PMS] Athena Twin: look at viva pinata :D DestructoidColette: which is what makes it difficult to ever escape these stereotypes. Lesley Smith: I love VP [PMS] Athena Twin: no one ever thought that would have success with adults and women, it was for kids [PMS] Athena Twin: ME TOO! Apocalyptica: Well as everybody knows,marketing guys are just that. Marketing guys. they will sell anything. but do not really grasp the idea as yet. Maybe one day they will wisen up to this unique opportunity and make even more sales. [PMS] Athena Twin: my gardens ROCK [Cerise] Robyn: *laugh* Lesley Smith: everyone i know - male or female - is addicted to it. [uwe]helen kennedy: Mm.. do you think that market surveys of girls and young women are really likely to produce 'out of character' responses? [PMS] Athena Twin: yup, once you play u can not get enough DestructoidColette: Well- what I am getting at is that fwhen I was growing up, I played all kinds of games - COntra and Barbie games alike. I got to choose what I liked. In today's day and age, it sem smuch more important to be marketing at certain groups since gaming has become such a powerful industry Lesley Smith: I've been trying to get a chewnicorn. [Cerise] Robyn: I can see that, Colette [Cerise] Robyn: Helen, I think what surveys like that produce are -expected- responses Lesley Smith: Yeah DestructoidColette: I agree with that, Robyn [Cerise] Robyn: everyone knows girls like pink! [PMS] Athena Twin: Barbie makes me throw up, but I still support her games because it intorduces girls everywhere to a love of playing...then I can get my hands on them later for soem Halo 3 :D [Cerise] Robyn: so when you ask a bunch of little girls if they like pink, already planning to market the pink Barbie game... [Cerise] Robyn: I think that's a good thing to consider, Athena Twin Apocalyptica: Never trust a statistic you did not fake yourself is a common saying. statistics out of survey can be bend any way you like them to be. they are nto worth the paper they are printed on [Cerise] Robyn: as adult women gamers, we look at a lot of the girl gamers and go "wow, that's crappy" [Cerise] Robyn: but they do introduce some girls to gaming, and that's awesome [PMS] Athena Twin: nothing is wrong with pink!!! what is more wrong is little girls given barbie dolls and ez-bake-ovens while the boys get race cars and play cowboy and indians Lesley Smith: the whole pink thing is purely down to that childhood idea that pink is for girls and blue for boys but these days that idea seems totally outdated. [PMS] Athena Twin: it is about how they are raised Lesley Smith: Yeah [Cerise] Robyn: *nods* Lesley Smith: the thing is, aside from games, everything in the industry is still geared at men. Apocalyptica: you know, I am a gamer. When I am playing it realy does not matter to me if another gamer is male or female. Are female not seperating themself currently for insisting that they are female gamers? Can't they just play games and be happy with it? [uwe]helen kennedy: Athena twin, this is an interesting issue about how aspirations are somehow already built in to the toys and games girls are given to play with and choose from. How do you think we could go about addressing this? Who should we hold accountable? [PMS] Athena Twin: I saw heads off on Gears of War then go play my Sims for some downtime [PMS] Athena Twin: it is about EXPOSURE [PMS] Athena Twin: expose women to games they do not traditionaly play, and more then likely they will ENJOY it [Cerise] Robyn: I think, again, that marketing could be a big factor there [uwe]helen kennedy: Apocalyptica this is a vital question that is no doubt on the lips of many gamers tonight.. why does being a woman matter? should it? Should we dismantle our stall and agree to play nicely with the current games? Are we making ourselves a target? Apocalyptica: so, market games at all not just a specific type in this way you will get the exposure [PMS] Athena Twin: but if they are nevber exposed to it...by marketing directors, game publishers, or thier parents, they that is where the fault lies...in society itself Apocalyptica: I believe most women make themself a target. tbh. [PMS] Athena Twin: yes, expose women to all types of games, the numbers will increase [Cerise] Robyn: I can't agree, Apocalyptica [uwe]helen kennedy: Do you others agree that online we are entirely anonymous. In my own experience there is a lot of effort put in to trying to find out whether you are female and then if you are 'exposed' making rather inappropriate *advances*.. Lesley Smith: I think it's a case of there are no such thing as women or men games, there should be just gamers. DestructoidColette: being a woman doesn't matter...but frankly a lot of female gamers have no problem sexualizing their images, so there is the crossing of lines again [Cerise] Robyn: I've received too many random rape threats just for having a female name on an online game Lesley Smith: REALLY? Lesley Smith: Wow [PMS] Athena Twin: yes Lesley Smith: that's kinda scary [Cerise] Robyn: Hell yes, it is DestructoidColette: thats awful [PMS] Athena Twin: online can be horrific Lesley Smith: *hugs* Apocalyptica: I always play female chars and never had this happening to me? Maybe it is the way you are ingame? Lesley Smith: Me too [Cerise] Robyn: I don't think so [PMS] Athena Twin: well look at this way... [Cerise] Robyn: but I think it's great that you haven't had that experience [PMS] Athena Twin: why should you hav e to HIDE being a female? you should not [Cerise] Robyn: it doesn't happen to every woman [Cerise] Robyn: but it does happen to many [Cerise] Robyn: agreed, Athena Twin [PMS] Athena Twin: no very true, but many Lesley Smith: That is such a shame Apocalyptica: no, not hide beeing a female, I never do. But you don't have to make it a big deal ... [Cerise] Robyn: see, I don't [Cerise] Robyn: when I'm playing a game, I often like to have a female avatar [Cerise] Robyn: but that's as far as I tend to go [PMS] Athena Twin: for instance, in PMS Clan we play only with people we know, custom rooms, we do not do regular matchmaking Apocalyptica: I also heard of guys beeing stalked in MMO's by female. [Cerise] Robyn: and I still get that crap [PMS] Athena Twin: to keep the harrasment out of our gameplay DestructoidColette: I dont hide it, but I dont sign in and type "OMG GUYS IM A GIRL BOOBZ ROXXOR" [Cerise] Robyn: but I seriously think that if there are women gamers who -do- want to make their gender a big deal, they should have that option, too Lesley Smith: No one should be harassed in a game, that's terrible Apocalyptica: Indeed, but it is happening. But is is happening to both, male and females. [PMS] Athena Twin: we will always need visiable role models in the industry...in dev companies, PR personal, gamers, u name it [uwe]helen kennedy: Is the fact that this kind of experience seems rare and clearly shocking a sign that things are improving? What changes can you identify that seem to be making things better? Lesley Smith: The problem is the industry is massivelly lacking in women [Cerise] Robyn: I think things may be getting better [PMS] Athena Twin: they are not lacking..... [PMS] Athena Twin: VISABILITY is DestructoidColette: I agree with Robyn. there are more women in the industry than ever. [Cerise] Robyn: when I first started playing online games, it was as a MUD-player in the 90's [Cerise] Robyn: and being visibly female was pretty unusual Apocalyptica: yay Apocalyptica: which MUD did you play? Lesley Smith: it is getting better. Apocalyptica: indeed it is [PMS] Athena Twin: yes, we need more women visbale, keeps other women motivated [Cerise] Robyn: I mostly played one called Magrathea - still do, now and then ;-) [Cerise] Robyn: I think visability is great [PMS] Athena Twin: i see several more female teams out in competitons now, which is great Lesley Smith: Yeah. [Cerise] Robyn: gets other women interested, and also makes it clear that we do exist Apocalyptica: like me with Ultima Onle, just can't somehow get away from ti. Even though LotrO is pretty cool right now I find [PMS] Athena Twin: those are the ones media interview and help give exposure [Cerise] Robyn: having more women working in gaming will make being a hobbyist in gaming better Apocalyptica: well here I know a few game developing companies that have loads and loads of female coders [uwe]helen kennedy: We are already running out of time so some final questions.. If you could effect one single immediate change that would improve contemporary games culture what would it be and why? Apocalyptica: grafik peeps anyways Lesley Smith: Stop segregating women. make games and magazines for gamers. Lesley Smith: not for one gender or the other. [PMS] Athena Twin: we have that alreday ;) DestructoidColette: More emphasis on creativity and breaking the mold. We have enough FPS, RPG, Platformers, etc etc. Try to strive for genre hybrids- or new genres altogether. [Cerise] Robyn: more variety of female characters in all kinds of games Apocalyptica: Marketing should change to "Global" in a sense of no sexism, racsim, etc.... Lesley Smith: Yeah [PMS] Athena Twin: make developement groups more diversified, all races, backgrounds, lifestyles to appeal to all aspects of gamers
